Index Editorial Staff Submissions Resources Archives  
  Table of Contents for Article

 

From Conference to Short Paper
Note, in this discussion of the Aeneid, from the the end of the second semester in Core, how the discussion of fate, a focus of the synchronous conference in one class, carries over into Ed's in-class writing activity in the next class. This group had not worked together very long, although all of the students except one had been in my two sections, using conferences, for nearly one year. Although I never taught the practice, most students began to pick up on the idea of signaling each other with "(joke)" or emoticons.
 
Special thanks to Ed Squires for permission to quote his remarks and paper.
Synchronous Conference: Dido's Fate & Other Questions & Other Questions
Today your groups should consider these questions, raised by Book 3 or insinuated by its events. Try to discuss them one at a time, in an order your group finds convenient. Use specific evidence to support your points:
  • Is Dido's situation fair? Specifically, does she deserve her fate? Why or why not?
  • Aeneas appeared to really love Dido, but the gods let him know that he cannot remain at Carthage. Could he have done anything differently to have improved this situation? Is he as cruel as Dido claims he is?
  • I got the sense that Virgil--not Mercury--is telling us, on p. 105, that politics and the destiny of nations come before love. Did you get that impression, too? Where did you see that happening in Books 1-3? Do you agree or disagree?
FROM: Gina
I think that it was ok for Aeneas to leave it was just the way he did it that made Dido so mad. what do you guys think?
 
FROM: Anne
I think that it really wasn't fair to either Aeneas or Dido...he was in a sense forced to leave b/c the gods told him that he had to and Dido was "forced" to love Aeneas b/c she had been struck by Cupid's arrow...I definitely think that the way in which Aeneas went about it contributed a lot to making Dido so mad.
 
FROM: Gina
but couldn't have Aeneas made it easier on Dido by explaining to her what he was supposed to do and the who fate thing, instead of just making all of those secret preparations and then sailing off?
 
FROM: Michael
' think that it really wasn't fair to either Aeneas or Dido...he was in a sense forced to leave b/c the gods told him that he had to and Dido was "forced" to love Aeneas b/c she had been struck by Cupid's arrow...I definitely think that the way in which Aeneas went about it contributed a lot to making Dido so mad'
 
I think what Anne said here shows how the god's can pull the strings of humans' lives. Even emotional strings like love. The actions of the humans are being controlled by the gods yet they get mad at other humans. Maybe in Roman society people didn't like to take responsibility for their actions if there is a negative result.
 
FROM: Nick
' instead of just making all of those secret preparations and then sailing off?'
 
I think that it would have hurt him too much to try and explain it to her. I really don't think she would have understood.
 
FROM: Anne
Aeneas did tell Dido that it was the fate thing..."If fate permitted me to spend my days...and make the best of things according to my wishes" (pg.107). He said that they had never entered into a marriage so he wasn't bound to her. she felt differently about their relationship referring to it as "the pledge we gave"(pg106).
 
FROM: Ed
I have to agree with Anne. I think that since Aeneas had to leave anyway (fate), that he could have done it with more tact. As for the fate that is assigned Dido, I don't think that it was a fair one. She was just a playing piece to the Gods, just a piece that was thrown away to further "fate". I think that the Gods could have circumvented her death.
 
FROM: Michael
' instead of just making all of those secret preparations and then sailing off?'
 
He probably did it in secret because Dido would have stopped him.
 
FROM: Instructor
Nick wrote,
'I think that it would have hurt him too much to try and explain it to her. I really don't think she would have understood.'
 
Let's see if we can find evidence for this in the text--it's a good point Nick makes but I'd like to nail it down.
 
FROM: Michael
Nick I think she would have.
 
FROM: Instructor
Anne wrote about Aeneas' comment,
 
'Aeneas did tell Dido that it was the fate thing..."If fate permitted me to spend my days...and make the best of things according to my wishes" (pg.107). He said that they had never entered into a marriage so he wasn't bound to her. she felt differently about their relationship referring to it as "the pledge we gave"(pg106).'
 
Good use of evidence here. Seems to answer a question about what he would have done *if* he had the choice. Anne also noted the difference in perception between the two lovers--Dido saw it as marriage, Aeneas didn't. Still, I guess it's his method of leaving that is open to debate.
 
FROM: Gina
I think that she did understand that Aeneas was going to leave her. on p. 106 it says: " The queen, for her part, felt some plot afoot Quite soon- for who deceives a women in love? She caught wind of a change, being in fear of what seemed her safety." She did know he was leaving, she just didn't quite yet know that it was fate.
 
FROM: Anne
'Let's see if we can find evidence for this in the text--it's a good point Nick makes but I'd like to nail it down.'
 
Aeneas did try to tell her, but in a way she wouldn't hear what he was saying. She didn't really hear his reasons for leaving, simply the fact that he was leaving. The idea of it hurting Aeneas too much to convey this is seen on page 109-110 when Dido runs away from him after yelling at him and leaves"him at a loss , alarmed and mute..with all he meant to say...with love of her, yet he took the course of heaven".
 
FROM: Nick
As far as textual support, there is plenty that shows his love.
 
Pg. 110
"Aeneas though he struggled with desire to calm and comfort her in all her pain, to speak to her and turn her mind out, shaken still with love of her...."
 
FROM: Nick
'She did know he was leaving, she just didn't quite yet know that it was fate.'
 
she might have known he was leaving, but I don't think she wanted to accept it...this is obviously something that hurt both of them. They are not happy campers about his fate thing.
 
FROM: Anne
I don't know about you guys, but I don't think that Dido deserved her fate..I mean she had already suffered through the loss of one husband and it was Cupid's fault
 
FROM: Gina
how can you blame it on Cupid, he was just a part of fate.
 
FROM: Anne
Sorry I didn't get to finish...I meant that it was Cupid's fault that she fell in love with Agnes and Cupid knew of Aeneas' fate and that he would one day leave Carthage
 
FROM: Michael
I guess one woman wasn't enough for my man Aeneas, and I suppose Dido just couldn't pull it off. (Joke)
 
FROM: Nick
I fully agree here Anne. Dido is getting shafted. Aeneas her main squeeze gets to live the rest of his life in glory. All she gets is a dead husband and a boyfriend who left her.
 
FROM: Gina
but on p. 121 it says that she does pretty good in the afterlife.
 
FROM: Anne
' Dido is getting shafted. Aeneas her main squeeze gets to live the rest of his life in glory. All she gets is a dead husband and a boyfriend who left her.'
 
...Not to mention a little suicide action as well! She took her life over this man!( I mean no guy is worth your life (joke))...
 
FROM: Nick
'but on p. 121 it says that she does pretty good in the afterlife.'
 
Where? All I see is a death scene, but no reference to what she does in the after life.
 
FROM: Anne
'but on p. 121 it says that she does pretty good in the afterlife.'
 
Where? All I got out of page 121 was that the gods finally did a little justice to Dido and set her wrestling spirit free...something that was long afterdue...I guess maybe does that mean that she did well in the afterlife?
 
FROM: Gina
'Where? All I got out of page 121 was that the gods finally did a little justice to Dido and set her wrestling spirit free...something that was long afterdue...I guess maybe does that mean that she did well in the afterlife?'
 
from lines 958 w/ Almighty Juno to the end. It talks of her soul being freed from the body and the mercy that Juno takes upon her because of her suffering.
 
FROM: Nick
Does anyone think that Aeneas should have stayed away from Dido in the first place. If he did, she would probably still be alive. I don't think her fate was as predestined as Aeneas'.
 
FROM: Nick
'from lines 958 w/ Almighty Juno to the end. It talks of her soul being freed from the body and the mercy that Juno takes upon her because of her suffering.'
 
That just means they finally let her die. The afterworld doesn't even start till she crosses the river Styx on line 967.
 
FROM: Ed
''Where? All I got out of page 121 was that the gods finally did a little justice to Dido and set her wrestling spirit free...something that was long afterdue...I guess maybe does that mean that she did well in the afterlife?'
 
from lines 958 w/ Almighty Juno to the end. It talks of her soul being freed from the body and the mercy that Juno takes upon her because of her suffering.'
 
I took this to mean that she was actually allowed to die. I thought that even death is strictly monitored by the Gods and fates.
 
FROM: Instructor
Anne asked,
 
'the gods finally did a little justice to Dido and set her wrestling spirit free...something that was long afterdue...I guess maybe does that mean that she did well in the afterlife?'
 
Dido was struggling in her death agony and Juno took pity and expedited her death, that's all. We'll have to wait to see Aeneas in Hades to find out how well Dido and the heroes from the Trojan War did. Dido will reappear in Book 6, as will Achilles, Creusa (Aeneas' wife), and other folks.
 
FROM: Nick
I'm going to have to go with Ed here.
 
FROM: Anne
I think that it was kind of impossible for Aeneas to stay away from Dido...they spent so much time together as it was building Carthage and then when Cupid struck her, she wanted him very badly. I would think it would be very very hard to stay away from someone you are spending a lot of time with and who wants you, not to mention that it seems like in those days people, especially heroes, were allowed to act on whatever feelings they had
 
FROM: Nick
'she wanted him very badly'
 
Sounds like our man Aeneas is in college (joke)
 
FROM: Anne
I would definitely have to say that I think Virgil is trying to say that destiny of nations is more important than the destiny of lovers...I mean we see this in the whole story of Dido
 
FROM: Anne
'she wanted him very badly'
 
Sounds like our man Aeneas is in college (joke)'
 
Hey, what can you...I couldn't think of another way to phrase it
 
FROM: Ed
'Does anyone think that Aeneas should have stayed away from Dido in the first place. If he did, she would probably still be alive. I don't think her fate was as predestined as Aeneas'.'
 
I kind of feel that Aeneas could have kept her alive if he had only made their trip to Carthage a pitstop, not an over the winter thing. I also want to know if Aeneas actually loved her because it says on pg102 " Then how they reveled all the winter long Unmindful of the realm, prisoners of lust." And after his talk with Mercury he was awakened, "From heaven had shaken him awake" p105. This does not sound like love, something that can be shaken off like sleep.
 
FROM: Gina
I agree w/ Anne. It seems that Rome is much more important than anything else that might be going on at the time.
 
FROM: Nick
Aeneas is a victim of society and its discontents. He is a product of what society has told him. All the advertisements he has seen through his life have haunted him.....oh sorry, wrong class.
 
FROM: Anne
Especially since Virgil was writing at a time when poets got rewarded for their works with houses and stuff like that (I think Dr. Essid mentioned that in class on Monday) obviously Virgil is also going to think that Rome, his country is all important...perhaps by advocating the nation over personal he is advocating the strength and unity that Rome has and should continue to have?
In Ed's short paper that follows, note how the register of the discourse changes; although Ed had only 10 minutes to complete the short assignment (used as a springboard for discussion in the remainder of class) he avoids terms from the conference such as "the fate thing" several students used or his own "if he had only made their trip to Carthage a pitstop."
In-class writing assignment: The World Below--Why?
At one level, we can say that Aeneas went to the Underworld in order to see his father, who shows him the glories of Rome. But so much else happens in this chapter--we see Dido, get a list of crimes punished, read a description of those who are rewarded.
 
Pick the event in the chapter that most interested you. Why do you think Virgil included it? Does it serve some larger purpose in The Aeneid, given what you've already read?
Ed Squires
TheWorld Below--Why?

I thought the most interesting event that happened in this chapter would have to be when the Sibyl tells Aeneas that "Light of the Teucrians, it is decreed that no pure soul may cross the sill of evil. When, however, Hecate appointed me Caretaker of Avernus woods, she led me through heavens punishments and taught me all."(p179 ll757-761). I found that particularly interesting because it showed that Fate (Hecate) can even defy certain rules. It makes one wonder where does fate preside, as an all powerful goddess or not. I don't think that anywhere else in the book do we see Fate intervening at all, except in the case of the Sibyl. However, it is the only time that she (Fate) actually has a role to play. Usually it seems like fate just kind of has these prophesies, but even she cannot intervene in any way. She seems to be an all powerful god because what she says happens no matter what. She predicts Aeneas' success, which happens (or else Virgil would not be writing), she predicted the fall of Cronus (Saturn) and many other prophesies that even the Gods cannot change. Virgil includes this in his work because of the fact that without a fate, a master controller, the personal, squabbling gods would have no order. The same reason goes why one of the Gods (Jupiter), is picked to be king of the gods. It also gives structure having fate as the reason for Aeneas' voyage.