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 Discussion of the Symposium
(Students' names are used with permission)

Good Athenian, you are invited to the home of Agathon the poet. A symposium on the nature of love will be held. Wine and flute-girls, gratis!

You all walk over to Agathon's with Socrates, and he tells all of you "Agathon is going to have a little philosophical discussion of love tonight. Now watch me--I'm going to question him in my usual way. Then you can try it with one of the other speakers, even me! I'm going to talk about Diotima, who taught me everything I knew about love. . .so I can answer questions about her philosophy of love.

"Don't drink too much. I'd suggest that you limit yourself to four quarts of wine each, and stay away from those flute girls!"

Join your group discussion today. One of you in the group will choose to play the role of the speaker given; you may question this person in any order and about any of his points. Try to use Socrates' own method of logical procedure in your questions.

FROM: Alcibiades TO: Group 1

The speaker for your group to question is Phaedrus. One of you should portray him and answer the questions of the others.

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

So Phaedrus, I know that you place great emphasis on virtue and self sacrifice and make a strong connection between these values and love.

What about lust? Is that a stronger form of love? Does it demand any virtue?

FROM: Lindsay Whiting TO: Group 1

And how does one differentiate between courage and self sacrifice simply for the sake of love and courage and self sacrifice for selfish motives-to be seen as virtuous in the eyes of the gods?

FROM: Phaedrus (Darden Copeland) TO: Group 1

No No No my dear,

Virtue is greatest, and the gods hold it dearest to them when it belongs solely to love--never to lust. And what is self sacrificing about lust?

Nothing I tell you, nothing. Love, never lust, is the most ancient of the gods, the most honored, and this gives men virtue and blessedness. I hope I have been of some service to you. Now bring me the flute girls so they can service me.

FROM: Amy Hunt TO: Group 1

Phaedrus, you spend some time discussing your belief that only a lover will die for a person. How did you reach this conclusion that excludes a mother and father dying for their children, for example?

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

I need my glass refilled, that is all I meant.

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

These seems to be a powerful love between a teacher and a student - so powerful that nothing would shame him more than being seen by the boy he loves when he is most vulnerable. In fact, the relationship is supposed to be so strong that the boy is supposed to reject the advances of the teacher until he is won over. Do you think a love such as this one can ever be achieved by a man and a woman. Or is that only lust? Is sacrificing life for your teacher or student stronger than making a sacrifice for someone of the opposite sex? Or is that irrelevant?

FROM: Alcibiades TO: Group 1

Sorry I'm late, as usual, but Amy asks Phaedrus a good one, 'How did you reach this conclusion that excludes a mother and father dying for their children, for example?'

What do you say, Phaedrus??

FROM: Lindsay Whiting TO: Group 1

Why is it that "a loved one who cherishes his lover" should be more impressive and delightful to the gods than "a lover who cherishes the boy he loves?" must one be loved in order to please the gods, or isn't unselfishly loving, even if that love is unrequited, enough?

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

Lindsay my dear, I am afraid I do not understand your question, but I can use the example of Achilles. Achilles was very unselfish. He was sent to the Isles of the Blest because dared to stand by Patroclus, even though he knew he would die. The gods look very favorably on him.

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

Hi Lindsay - As a fellow flute girl, I asked a similar question of Phaedrus, but he appears too busy being serviced to answer!

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

When you speak of a mother and father dying for their child--yes, that is respectable, but that is a different type of love. There is another god of Family Love but I cannot remember his name right now because I drank all of my wine and took some of Pausinius's while he was not looking.

FROM: Matt Rice TO: Group 1

If your not willing to die for your lover does this that true love is absent from the relationship? What is the difference between a heterosexual and a homosexual dying for his lover?

FROM: Amy Hunt TO: Group 1

Hey Phaedrus, get cracking and answer Sue's question from before! Why do you say that there is such a powerful love between a teacher and student? I had always been under the impression that the two lovers were supposed to learn from each other and that it was 50/50.

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

Flute girl number two, I think that a lover HAS to be loved in return. It is, in a sense, a way for the gods to judge this lover, after all they are fairly busy up there. I think to be loved by a lover, one must be unselfish. In a way, being unselfish will lead the loved one to be loved in return. Have I cleared this up for you?

FROM: David Lynn TO: Group 1

Phaedrus- Isn't the beloved suppose to resist the lover?

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

Okay drunken Phaedrus, I am going to help you out. I think that a "loved one who cherishes his lover" is looked on very favorably by the gods because the quest for wisdom is to satisfy his soul. This seems to be the most powerful type of love. The beloved is supposed to resist the lover, and when he is won over, he is succumbing to the knowledge of his teacher.

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

I really do not think it makes a big difference to the gods whether the lover is a woman or not. I think, in essence, that a heterosexual lover dying for the other is looked on as being MORE favorable because we all know that heterosexual love is harder to be accepted by the gods.

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

Hi Dave - Have you been busy with the flute girls?

FROM: Alcibiades TO: Group 1

Dave wrote

'Phaedrus- Isn't the beloved suppose to resist the lover?'

When I made those advances toward Socrates, he resisted because my desires were not very noble--I would trade physical favors for wisdom. Not a fair trade, Socrates reminded me (219A).

FROM: Lindsay Whiting TO: Group 1

did you not say that when Alcestis was willing o die in place of her husband that "she went so far beyond his parents in family feeling that she made them look like outsiders?" if this is the case, it seems to me that you are saying it would have been more appropriate and expected (especially in the eyes of the gods) for his father and mother to sacrifice themselves since he was still alive. If this is the case than haven't you contradicted yourself in saying that no one will die for you but a lover? i realize that in response to amy's question you argued that family love is a different kind of love, but you did not discuss more than one type of love in your speech, and the existence of more than one type of love still does not change the fact that someone besides a lover will in fact die for you. don't you agree?

FROM: Amy Hunt TO: Group 1

I'm not sure I understand why the beloved is supposed to resist the lover. Is it because by giving in, it would appear too much like lust or is it because time must pass in order for their relationship to grow?

Does this only apply to homosexual love or can a man succumb to the knowledge of a woman?

FROM: Matt Rice TO: Group 1

What is your point when you tell of the legend of Orpheus? Are you just trying to emphasize the power of love or are you saying that love makes men do foolish things?

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

Hey flute girl number 3--settle down!!!!

There is a powerful love between lover and a loved one, but that does not mean that they do not learn from each other. I do not understand where the confusion comes from. I think that a lover (teacher) learns from his student in how to be a good lover, and that a student also begins to understand this too, so that , when he grows older, he too can learn to be the perfect lover. It is a way of perfecting the teachers love (perfection being the most important) and a way of beginning to understand love for the student (which is EQUALLY important).

FROM: Amy Hunt TO: Group 1

Well said, Lindsay! You really elaborated on what I was trying to say.

FROM: David Lynn TO: Group 1

I agree with Phaedrus that there are two different types of love. The love between a parent and a child begins at the child's birth. The Parents have little choice but to love their children because they have bonded with them since the beginning of their life. A love between a man and his spouse is started because of a common interest or lust. A bond between a man and a woman can be broken a lot easier than that between a man and his parents.

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

Phaedrus - I do agree with your last statement that heterosexual love is harder to be accepted by the gods. Why do you think that is? I know that homosexual love has to be love for the soul, because trading "physical favors for wisdom" was not considered a fair trade. What is the trade in love between a man and woman?

Well said Lindsay!!!

See you flute girls later. Good luck tonight! By guys!

FROM: Phaedrus TO: Group 1

Flute girl 3,

Men will never succumb to the knowledge (if you can call it that) of a woman. They have none.

FROM: Sue Wenz TO: Group 1

Oh yeah, Phaedrus?

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